Introduction

0:04 And if you can train your mind to see the possibility and the probability of redemption, it changes everything. I don't think we're supposed to work in a torturous, hard way. A woman had worked at the same auto repair shop for 25 years, in the same location. A company sent her a pin in the post. Nobody at her own store knew it was her anniversary.

0:30 I guess the guy found that out while getting his car battery changed. So he cut short his breakfast with his kids, went and bought cupcakes and flowers, and came back to celebrate with her. He says it was one of the best days he's had in a long time. This episode goes somewhere different. We talk about seeing people. By being seen and heard, he's so close to being loved, the difference is almost imperceptible. By the thing you've been through, the part that hurts is the qualification you'll one day use to help someone else.

1:00 And why he thinks most of us should live like a reservoir, instead of a canal, giving out of the overflow, rather than passing everything straight through.

Meet Brian Schroller

1:09 In this episode, my guest is Brian Schroller. Brian and I first met almost three years ago, when he came to the UK to deliver a training bootcamp for business leaders in our church. Brian is a leadership coach and former fixed income portfolio manager, who helps leaders discover that personal wholeness and professional success go hand in hand. Brian and his business partner, Paul, worked together at Summit Trek, adapted to the current situation. Brian and his business partner, Paul, worked together at Summit Trek, adapting principles, once reserved for billion dollar companies, into simple, practical tools for leaders and organisations everywhere.

1:41 His greatest joy is time with his family. He loves redemptive stories, especially in film. In his spare time, you can find him jeeping or grilling for his large family. Welcome, Brian. It's so great to have you here today. So great to see you, friend. Oh, gosh, it's like we just had a whole conversation before him, going, oh, wouldn't this be good to put this stuff in there? Stuff in the podcast. I think maybe it would be a great way to start, as you mentioned, about redemptive stories.

2:14 And we've talked about, previously we were talking a bit about AI and technology, but there's this element of the importance of redemption. And what does that really look like for you?

Viktor Frankl and the value of redeemed pain

2:28 Yeah, it's interesting. I heard about Viktor Frankl, and he had this thing called Logos therapy. And so Logos therapy was helping people see the redemptive value of their pain at increasing frequency. So all of us look back on the trauma from 20 years ago and say, well, that terrible thing happened, but look what good came of it. And Frankl was working in, I guess, psychology awards with a lot of suicidal people.

3:00 He was working predominantly with survivors of the Holocaust. So family members who had lost family members to treachery. And before we had a name like PTSD, this must have been the most traumatised group of people on planet Earth. And they said he worked with 20,000 suicidal patients and didn't lose one to suicide. Because he trained people to see there's a redemptive perspective on every hard and difficult thing you encounter.

3:30 And if you can train your mind. To see the possibility and the probability of redemption, it changes everything. If you can look at your pain and your redeemed pain as your further qualification. So I had a marriage that nearly failed and we fought for years to get through to what I would consider the best marriage that I know.

3:56 And because of that, I now have tremendous value or experiential currency. To spend in the direction of helping other people in troubled marriages. When I thought I had a perfect marriage, I thought I had real value to contribute to other marriages. In reality, I had nothing. So there's this weird paradox, I think, that happens. And redemption isn't Christian's intellectual property.

4:24 Redemption is a thing. And so if we can teach people to understand that everything they've gone through has a redemptive value. And the more that I can claim my pain and step through it to the other side of healing and redemption, the more qualified I am to actually bring goodness, mercy, love, hope, and redemption to other people.

What a broken marriage qualifies you for

4:51 Yeah, that's wonderful. And I think that's such a powerful thing. And I shared a story with you in a similar thing where my own past and my own pain of failed marriage. And. Elements of that and understanding just where that came from would be able to come out the other side. I mean, I have a, you know, amazing wife now, and yet I can look back at the first marriage and go and see where it could have gone. So it wasn't. And so, and that can be difficult because you're actually, yeah, but, but that in that point in time, I wasn't, I didn't have the knowledge.

5:23 I didn't have the support network. I didn't have what I needed in terms of, you know, being able to come out of that place, you know, in a. Yeah, in a, in a more healthier, in a healthier way, but I can look back on now and I can understand that. And so I now, if I'm talking with people, I know where I wouldn't even want to say where I went wrong, but I know how I can support the people in redeeming and redeeming where I, and it's, and it's, uh, again, so as we spoke of just beforehand was this element of, well, even part of it said, if we can step out of our own needs, you know, there's obviously a certain.

6:03 Basic needs that we have, but we can step out of those needs and be considering other, what other needs are, particularly in a relationship. So sometimes I know I might, I might have, um, my wife might, might say, oh, ask me about something. And I'll be like, yeah, but I need this. And in that moment, that can sometimes be cause conflict, but sometimes I'll stop and I go, okay, well, actually it's the, her need in this situation is greater than my need.

6:28 If I can get over that and say, actually, let's okay. Right. Well, or actually. Sometimes we'll also, we'll ask her, what do you need? You know, what do you need? You know, instead of assuming and taking on particular men, we can take on that. I can fix this for you, but when we step back and we actually ask the question, what do you need? And then that, that is, that creates that space. Doesn't it? To be able to move forward with that. And that's what I've, that's what I've seen, but I love that.

6:56 And it's not easy when we, we talk about being able to step out of our own needs, but when we look at, like, you said, when we're in pain and we can say, we can actually, once we can get through that pain and understand that outside of that, there are going to be people that are going to have been walking a similar journey and instead of them having to go through what we went through, because I believed in my, in my marriage, I believed that it was going to be less painful

7:25 with myself and my wife, but it would be less painful if we were out of the marriage. And yet the pain I went through was worse. So the reality was I would have, I would have, um, it'd have been less painful to have, or potentially don't know. Do you, to be in that?

The institutions that traffic in fear

7:43 I think it's really sad too, Shaun, that the institutions that should be bringing us hope of restoration, that things can be better. So let's say our education systems, our governmental systems, our political parties, our major media outlets, traffic and fear. Cause our way to get you to do what we want is to make you terrified and afraid.

8:10 And sadly, some of our religious systems have adopted the same. We're going to scare you to death to get you to buy into our brand, our philosophy, our political agenda, and even social systems. So social media, for instance, um, you're not going to buy my product or follow me or subscribe to what I'm peddling. Unless I can. And so we live in a world where the entire communication system, including some of the systems we used to look to, to, to bring hope and the idea of better and more are mainly trafficking and lack and scarcity.

8:53 And that's a horrible thing to do to humanity. So I think one of the great opportunities and my channel is business. That's the primary lane that I'm in. If we can train leaders. To be a restorative presence where they're bringing the hope of better and more and every arena, you can change the course of some group of humans. And I think the thing that most of us make a mistake on is we're trying to solve the world's problems are we're spending our energy on things that we have very little control over and we're spending our emotional bandwidth or our soul's capacity.

9:33 On international. And political and national things. When we have a community of people. In front of us. In our work in our families and our broader community that we have incredible ability to move the needle on and bring hope and restoration to. So that every hour I spend in the direction of our political trauma. Our global. Catastrophe militarily or any other way is one more.

10:03 You know, parcel of capacity. That I lose for the people right around me. Greg McKeown says when you say yes to something you simultaneously say no to a myriad of other things. And if I give a portion of my heart to a political fight. That I can do very little about that I live in an echo chamber with of other people talking about it. If I give a portion of my heart to that I've taken a portion of my heart from the people that work for me.

10:33 Or the clients that sit in front of me. Or my children or other people that I want to be fully loaded. And present for. So one of my weird confessions and I get taken to task on this all the time.

Seventeen years without the news

10:47 I haven't read the news in 17 years. I have very very little understanding of what's going on in the world other than. When we get in a major war you eventually hear about it. When Covid crashes on your shores you eventually find out. When there's a major. Political election signs start showing up on the side of the road and let me know that something's coming. But I really reserve my heart mind my soul's capacity for the people right in front of me where I have the opportunity to really do something about it.

11:20 Yeah well. This is so many so many kind of directions and things we could take off from that and. Few things come to mind for me is that I've done some online CBT. Before when I've had. Issues with anxiety one of the things I spoke about was this they call it the worry tree and you know you sort of pop your worries and you be on like one side of it is your hypotheticals so these are the things like you talked about we can't do anything about them on the other side is your practicals so these are things I can do something about so when you take these worries and then you go right actually can I do anything about it now I can't it's hypothetical is there anything I can actually realistically do anything about yes I can as a practical.

12:03 Then and then we we take the right to know hypotheticals on a piece of paper we just sort of throw it away because you can't do anything about the hypotheticals those are worries that are never going to going to be resolved but the practical ones you can just take it and you can just do it and I think that really feeds into what you're saying is that this is. And I love that what you said about the leaders that we want to be going out and asking the question what do you need instead of I've got what you need because that's right isn't it is that this.

Good king, bad king

12:33 Everyone wants to have something yeah here's what I need from you we we have this construct we call it good king and bad king or good queen bad queen and the idea is there's this aesthetic conversion you must go through so if I'm a leader and I have all this power and authority and I've never been taught that other people really matter I've never learned the beauty of an experience of a great vacation or art.

13:03 Or poetry or relationship or conversation I'm going to use all my power and service of myself but a good king has gone through an aesthetic conversion where they realise life is no longer just about them and they will use their power in the service of everyone under their care and that to us is the picture of a healthy leader or a leader who's offering restorative presence is they're bringing life and restoration to everyone around them.

13:33 And the very atmosphere shifts when they walk in the room lights up when they walk in the room instead of lighting up when they walk out of the room. It's just a simple picture of that and I want to be that kind of leader I want to be that kind of person and I want a lot more people in this world operating that way and that that really motivates me the the interesting thing about the news thing is I'm an Enneagram eight.

14:01 I have a high D and D. I'm an activator and strength finder I'm a very passionate high energy aggressive person in whatever direction I set my heart to so when I was involved in the political cycle as an institutional investor I was up to here with news sources and newsletters and information and I was largely antagonised fearful and angry as a result of all that and so I had to break that cycle.

14:33 I was ever going to quit looking at self and my own anxiety and fear so I think I'm a faith person so my God was very gracious at redirecting my attention away and using my passion and my emphatic way of living to set very hard boundaries and I think it's made a tremendous difference for me and every key relationship in my life as a result of it redeeming my energy.

15:03 Yeah really is not an abusive style of thought like I said in our past lives but I'm like I intend to go down and I'm interested when I look back on what has made me feel said in my past life. So yeah when I get older my emotions what I used to feel that really kind of something like that scrap that's growing you know like that I spoke does that you've talked about this is new and this is something that you feel like there's kind of like a clear wallpaper it seems like you know very many years on the H now being very much of a product now. And to. Yeah,

15:33 We look at and we see this, that often people are, whether it's whatever they're doing, they'll get to prominence, whether it's through fame, whether it's through influencing, whether it's through politics, whatever it gets to. But there's that sense that then there's a danger it can become something that you're fighting to keep. And if you're fighting to keep it, then we're moving back into that element, aren't we? If it's about me rather than it's about what can I do. And if we can be leading in a way that says,

16:00 well, I will do this for the time that I'm, I can be providing the need that is being requested when it comes to time where it's time for me to be replaced. Then I'm, I'm one of my boss I had back in the late 90s said to me, always look to work yourself out of a job, always to be expendable. And I've not always been able to do that, but when I have done that, I've not done it most of the time. I've always had other opportunities happen.

16:27 You know, one's gone and then something else comes up because they're like, well, here's the guy that's, that isn't been, you know, just lost his job or, you know, the prime minister that held on for a bit too long or whatever it is that's happened. But what do you think in that, in terms of leadership?

Work was never meant to be torturous

16:45 Yeah. I don't think we're supposed to work in a torturous, hard way. I don't think living the life we're intended to live is supposed to be this hard, long suffering, difficult journey. We're supposed to do hard and really, treacherous things in order to be effective or to serve God if you're a faith-based person. I don't think those two things coexist.

17:11 C.S. Lewis says in eternity, God will whisper a name that's known only between us and God. And he says, what should this secrecy mean? It should mean that each one of the created bears some one aspect of the divine beauty that no other creature can. And I firmly believe that each one of us has a, a contribution to make. And it's unique in all the world.

17:37 And it's nuanced by our creation story, the family we were born into. It's created by the life we lived. It's created by the work we have done to redeem and overcome our brokenness. But what we have is 8 billion people who uniquely offer one aspect of the divine creator. And I think one day when the creator is fully known

18:02 as our sacred being, our sacred text tells us he will be, it's when all 8 billion of us are operating in that clear, perfect, authentic, unique creation. And so that really motivates me when I sit across from a person, especially a hardened person, I almost see a suit of armour. And I know enough about a suit of armour to know that there are a few places, even in a suit of armour,

18:28 that the sword can go in. And what I'm looking for is, how do I get beyond? How do I get beyond the castle walls? How do I get beyond the armour and find the heart? Because if I can speak to the heart, then we're going to have a really amazing conversation. And I'm going to be able to pull out and cultivate what's really true and really matters. Because if that person is going to live an abundant and full life, they're going to be operating from that unique identity.

Why do you do what you do?

18:56 I met with a billionaire real estate investor and he was a big deal. He's a really big deal. And I could tell he was a big deal. And so God was just, I feel like, directing me to get to the heart. And I said, so why do you do what you do? And he said, I love the art of the deal. And I go, okay. Why do you do what you do?

19:23 And he said, well, I guess I like creating wealth for the philanthropy and for taking care of my team. And I go, great, why do you do what you do a third time? And he got real quiet, Shaun, and he dropped his eyes and he looked up and I could see the emotion on his face. And he said, I love to believe there are things

19:49 that have been disregarded and are unuseful that I can bring back to life and bring utility and value to the people in our community. And I'm like, I want to work with that guy. I don't want to work with the art or the deal guy. I don't want to work with a creating wealth guy. I want to work with a guy that has a deep and true heart behind what he does. And I would say, I'm not sure he even knew he had that deep and true heart

20:18 until using coaching, you ask questions to get to the deeper and truer thing of who he was. And I think that exists in every human being. And most of them are unaware of what it is and haven't cultivated and activated that into a way of living. And that's what really motivates me about people. Yeah. And it's, I had a previous recording of the podcast and my guest was talking about how she helps people

20:48 to be authentic online in their social media, et cetera, in their marketing. Of course, what you're saying is to be authentic, we actually need to understand first and foremost, who we are, you know, what name are we given? And I know that's in mind, the book came to mind, Living Fearless, Jamie Winship, and this idea of that God gives us a unique name and he calls me a flag bearer.

21:15 And to me, you know, a flag bearer is sometimes the one that's waving the flag. Well, you know, to encourage the army to come, you know, to come from behind. And so, and sometimes it's to raise that banner to say, to gather so that the general can look around and go, right, there we go, everybody's in place. They're ready. What for where I need to, so we need to send them to that kind of rallying, rallying of people.

21:41 And that really resonates with me. And so I hear you talk about actually to be authentic, to go out and be authentic with people. If we're actually approaching people, whether it's on LinkedIn or whatever, instead of trying to sell to people and trying to sort of go, well, okay, you might want this need. So I'm going to spread it across to as many people as I can to understand to this, then. What happens if I actually focus on wanting to actually create a light,

22:11 a relationship or working relationship with somebody with these people based upon the fact that they are, and what we spoke about as pre before the conference was the idea of being lighthearted. The idea of these are people that light up for the same things that we light up for that. These people actually want to grow with us. And I've seen this work in my own life where I've actually worked. Some people I've, I've, I've had clients I've had and they've been clients for years because we have a great

22:40 relationship and we kind of it's it, the relationship goes beyond the work that we that we'll have conversations about other things. There'll be other things that we, that we can talk about that we'll go, oh yeah, but we'd enjoy discussing together. I think if you think about the things that make you most emotional,

Twenty-five years and a pin in the post

23:00 that's precipitously close to the unique nature that's been created in you. Yeah. And so I'll tell you a quick story. Um, I was going to meet my older children for breakfast. My wife and I were, and we had a problem with our battery in our car and we thought we'll pull into this battery repair place and they actually replace them for you. Come out to your car. And so we said, we need to have our battery looked at and we think we need to replace it.

23:26 And this older lady, maybe 55, 60, you don't see ladies working at auto repair shops and 55 year olds. So she comes out and I said, tell me your name. How long have you worked here? And she said, I've worked here 25 years. And I said, you've worked for this company for 25 years. And she said, I've worked in this location for 25 years.

23:51 And I go, that's amazing. People today just don't have the ability to work through problems and challenges and stay in one place committed for a really long time. That's really amazing that you've been able to do that. What does your company do for people that have made it 25 years in one location? And she says, well, they gave me this little pin. I got my paycheque from the national headquarters,

24:19 which is 2000 miles away. And they sent me this little pin and I've got this pin on it says 25. And I said, that's amazing. Like what else? Like what does your local store do for a 25 year employee? And she said, I don't think any of them know that it's my 25th anniversary. So she finishes working on our car and we call the kids and say, we're not going to join you for breakfast.

24:45 And we go to the grocery store and we get cupcakes and flowers. And we come back to the store. This always makes me cry. I come back to the store and we walk in and we go 25th anniversary. Congratulations. That's so amazing. And she is baffled. Like, who are you? What's going on? Shaun, I have been celebrated and seen and acknowledged by so many people that my

25:16 greatest joy in life is getting to see someone and call them up and acknowledge and celebrate who they are. We went, we joined our kids. They had finished breakfast and they said, man, that must've been a great day for her. And I'm like a great day for her. That was one of the best days I've had in a really long time. And I feel like our own healing and our own redemption should have a

25:43 translatable value in the direction of others. And if we open ourselves up and we're willing, we will see the desperate heart cry in need of humanity all over the place, all around us every day. I've got lots of fun stories like that, but I, what's the point? What's the point of having power or resources or energy or bandwidth? I had time that day where she didn't have time. She was working.

26:12 I had money that I could use instead of going to get a nice breakfast to buy some flowers and cupcakes, which really didn't cost much money at all. And I had the emotional bandwidth to be present and see her, which most of my life I haven't because I was working so hard to do good things. I'm trying to accomplish. I'm trying to accomplish things. And I think that's the work. How do we slow down?

26:37 How do we, how do we grow soul's capacity? How do we use our resources in the direction of, and how do we look past ourselves far enough to see the people that are right in front of us? Cause they're all over the place. Yeah, absolutely. And there's such a power just to be seen and known this, that we, we, we have homeless people here and, and,

27:02 and a lot of those people, I mean, one of my younger, younger friends talks to the story about, he went up and he gave this homeless person a hug and they cried and, and, and they end up explaining to him that hadn't been touched in something like 15 years or some, whatever the time was, but in such a long time, nobody even physically touched them. So for somebody to be willing to,

27:27 to give them a hug was, and that's free, isn't it? It's as you say, I mean, it's not even, it's not even about, but being able to put aside, as you say, the challenges, the business isn't there. And we look at, and we're looking, we can look at various technologies to help go. Yeah, we can save time with this. We can save time with that. But if technology becomes the thing that just draws, draws our attention, you know, scrolling the foot, the first episode,

27:53 we talked about doom scrolling in the first episode of the Better with Humans podcast. And this is endless scrolling. If we're endlessly scrolling, and doing some hour, what could we have done, you know, with that, with that half an hour. And I've been, ever since I had a mobile phone, I've been guilty of sometimes there might be in a room and, and I'll go, oh, I'm a bit awkward. Then the people are talking to each other. And maybe instead of going to talk to somebody, I'll put up my,

28:20 I can put up my phone and be just, I mean, back then I didn't really have a lot going on my phone. So, so I wasn't really, they didn't have any apps. So I was like, I am just taking my email on my phone kind of thing. But, but I think that is, that is a challenge that we, how we use technology in a way that actually supports our ability to come together. Like, I would like, you know, you like, you know, you're in the States and I'm in the UK and we can,

28:46 we can come together and we can have this conversation that we can, this could be shared with others wherever they are. So that's a great way of us being able to use technology in an effective way, because we're able to, to encourage people and share these share and hear from your stories. Um,

The receptionist and the Lord of the Rings

29:08 and the interesting thing to me, Shaun is that this is great business. So I'll give you an example. We're working with another pretty high powered person. First time we met him and he's late. So Paul and I are talking to his receptionist and his receptionist has a quote from the Lord of the Rings on the side of her desk. And she has a picture of three dogs.

29:34 So we asked her about them and we asked her about Lord of the Rings and we asked her about the dogs. Her three dogs are named after three of the hobbits. And so we asked her, why is Lord of the Rings so important to you? Why is that such a predominant thing? And she starts to get emotional and she quotes from the movie, even the small smallest among us have the opportunity to change the course of the future.

30:00 And when it, seems like so much has gone wrong and no good, the light can shine all the clear. She starts quoting it back and she's quoting the Lord of the Rings to us. Like it's her religion, like it's her belief in a better day in the world because she is bought into that idea from this movie. So we go to sit down with the owner of the business and we said, man, it's amazing how much she loves Lord of the Rings. And he goes,

30:29 Lord of the Rings. She likes the Lord of the Rings. She sits right out there. You see her every day. She's got Lord of the Rings stuff all around. And how did you, how did you miss that? She's transactional. She gets stuff done for him. And so he hasn't really seen her. And so we explained to him how important that is. And we said, is she important to your business?

30:54 She's changed my life. She's organised my schedule. She takes care of everything. My life is different. It's different and better because of her. And I said, you know, there's a place in New Zealand where you can actually go to the Shire. You could send her to New Zealand and she could actually walk in the Shire. And he said, you think that's what I should do?

31:21 And I said, you know, if you're a good business leader, seeing your people and celebrating them is a good thing. If you just want to be a, a decent human, seeing people and helping make their dreams come to life would be a great thing. If you're a total narcissistic, don't care about anyone but yourself person, you should still send her because her loyalty and her desire and her passion about this company would go through the roof.

31:52 The interesting thing is it doesn't really matter what your motive is. I hope your motives good, but caring for people under your care is the, is the path to joy, life, prosperity, and even better business. And I don't understand why everyone views resource and capacity to serve self as the only mechanism for it. Because again, even if you're selfish,

32:19 care for your people because they will make a much more prosperous, engaged, productive business. I want them to do it because their heart's been changed and they care about others. More than themselves. But even if you don't, you should still do this. So I love how the right thing to do is the right thing to do. Even when the motive is sometimes off, it's still the right thing to do.

32:44 Yeah, absolutely. So good. I think it's just so interesting when we think about there's a report that things number you quite a few years ago now, but there was a study done looking at the motivation that people have in, inside of businesses. So the organisations and money wasn't top, you know, money was kind of, you know,

33:11 quite a way down in terms of you can give people more money. You can, you know, you can make their environment. Uh, yeah, I can improve their, the, the work that they're doing, but actually when they're seen, if you're doing things to say, Hey, we're doing this because we're responding, not just, not just because we're doing things because this will make it a better workplace, but we're, we're doing it because we're in response to what some of the things that you've said.

33:38 We know there's a, there's a, a problem where this is not really relevant, but just pops to mind. I was working in London and we had this, uh, French fresh fruit. So they had this period of time where we were at fresh fruit in the morning, which is brilliant. So of course everybody stopped bringing in fruit from home because they're like, great, I can get fresh room and it's quite expensive for them to do. And at one point they are, we're going to stop doing the fruit. And everybody was like, but why do you, you start in there? They were like,

34:04 they realised how impactful it was out of all the things that they were doing. You, you know, you give people the fruit and the, uh, they're not necessarily going to want more money, but they've, they've got the fruit. And I did another time they, um, but there was a chocolate event, chocolate vending machine. And, and they took out the chocolate vending machine and they put in like health food snacks. And this is probably 20 years ago, right?

34:30 So we're not really as health conscious, maybe 20 years ago, as we were then. And nobody, nobody wanted to use it. So they put the chocolate machine back. And so there's this thing of, of actually when you are seen and heard and providing things for what it is that you would like, that's the same. That's the other element I think is that it's not just about doing good things, do a good thing. Like your example, that story was, is doing something for her that because of what you'd spoken to about, you know, that she would,

34:59 that would be amazing. That would be something she would love. Yeah.

The tyre shop that got it right

35:03 There's a company here called Discount Tire. And well, before that I don't know if it's for day Brown or Dan Allen or who said it, but it's something like the feeling of being seen and being heard is so close to the feeling of being loved that it's almost imperceptible and it's difference. So I'm at the tire place discount tire, which is the national chain here known for its incredible culture.

35:32 They provide uni university money for all their employees. They build long-term careers. They pay everyone super well. They provide a retirement. They provide medical care. It's one of those companies that everyone wants to go to work for because your life is set after that. So I'm getting my tyre changed and I'm talking to the maintenance guy and I said, how long have you worked here? He said 14 years. And I said, man,

35:57 I've heard this is just an amazing company. What's your experience been? Of working here? And he talked for 10 minutes about the water bottles, the iced water bottles they provide in the summer because it's so hot and the misters that they installed in the garage that spray cool air to keep them cool and the tarp that they put over the outside. So when they're standing and talking to a customer,

36:23 they're covered from the sun. He never mentioned the salary, the education, the benefits, nothing. I was what he was telling me is I've been seen and heard. We work in a hot climate and it's very hot in the summer and they are doing all these little things that cost next to nothing because they care about me and he didn't use that language, but I'm being seen.

36:52 I'm being heard. I'm being acknowledged and the difficult part of my job is being addressed without me having to ask about it. I just thought, man, what a beautiful metaphor for what companies should be doing for their team members. One of our large clients pays for 75% of all their employees to come to life plan or our better story retreat that we call it now.

37:17 And some of those employees go on those retreats and decide they should be doing something different with their life. And they still send them because they now understand what we want working here is people that, that believe there. They're supposed to be here and we are better off and they are better off when, if they realise they're supposed to be somewhere else, they're not sitting here fractionally giving us a portion of themselves because their heart and life are designed for something else.

37:48 And I think just what an incredible generosity to care about your employees more than just their marginal utility to what I'm doing as a company. I think that it's, I think it takes courage as well. I think in organisations, there's been as leaders to do it. And we're talking about these things as if it is, it does take courage. I, I've worked in an organisation where they didn't want to send somebody on a training course because they were, oh yeah,

38:16 we send people on training courses and then they, they train up and they go and get a better job and maybe, yeah, okay. Sometimes that happens, but there was a guy there that, that was paying for himself to be trained and did because they wasn't getting it. And I, I said, look, if you don't give this guy, if you don't give him this role, that's become available. If you don't do that, he's going to be gone because he is so committed that he's even paying for himself to do that.

38:41 But actually really, he should be getting paid for this. He's taking that thing and saying, well, okay, yeah, it may be all happen, but you are an opportunity to better somebody's life. Now, often what can happen if somebody's really enjoyed the work they've done and they feel like they've been looked after, even if they're going somewhere else, they're often really great at finding other people and going, oh yeah, actually they're leaving a job and they go, well, actually,

39:07 and they'll, they, you know, putting out the feelers and going, and often they can end up saving company's money because they go, actually, I've got somebody that I think would be really good in that role, would be really good. And I've certainly enjoyed in my career opportunities to help people grow, you know, to hire on instincts rather than the instincts and connection with someone going, I think I could really work with this somebody. And that could be, I think I'd enjoy, I'd enjoy working with them and grow with them rather than just saying, well, you know,

39:35 they don't tick all the boxes. So, you know, okay. They only take half the boxes. Well, actually they tick the boxes that's, that suggests to me, they've got the character we need. And so we can, we can work with character and we can, and they can grow in the skills that they need.

Teaching your team to run a business

39:52 Yeah. We, I own partial, I'm partners in some construction companies. And I lead the culture, meetings. So I'm the culture guy. I'm the quarterly offsite guy. I'm the annual offsite guy. I meet with some people one-on-one, but I don't live there day to day. But one of the things that I was really was impressed upon me is everyone. Who's a craftsman for us and installer,

40:20 a person who's in the field and their minds thinks I could do this myself. And many of them will leave to try to start their own business and fail. And so I thought, what if we teach them all how to run a business? What if monthly we show them our financials? What if monthly we show them what we're doing in marketing? What if monthly we show them administration and management,

40:45 and we essentially teach them the business of running their own business? Because what almost every one of them realises, I don't want to own my own business. I want to work for someone who knows how to run a business. Well, I don't want to run a business for someone who knows how to run a business. And because of the generosity of training them, if they're interested to run their own business, they are fiercely loyal because we're not just seeing them as transactional.

41:15 We're seeing as people who would be capable of running their own business, just like us, but who are probably not designed to do that or have a desire to do that. So instead of teaching people to, to be a competitor, think about them becoming competitors. What if we invest and enrich everyone who works for us so that they see that they're valued and that we believe in them because 99% of them are not going to

41:42 leave and they're going to be so devoted and bought in. And now they understand when I spend money, how the money flows through the company. They understand when business is slow, we're working hard on the marketing side to get them opportunities. They understand the value, the value of a referral. We've actually taught them how to run a business on their own as a way to say,

42:07 we value you and care about you, but it hasn't turned into a competitor. Who's taking business away from us ever. That's a different mindset. I don't know how I got there or what books I read that convinced me of that, but I think it's the way we should be operating. How do we grow everyone, our team to a point of independence, right? Dependence in the way they work and maybe the potentiality of doing something beyond us.

42:35 Because when I was a kid, we would borrow a lawnmower and my dad would say, we need to return it better than we found it. What if every day we went into the office thinking everyone under our care is going to be found better by their families or their future employer simply because they got to work for us for a period of time. What an idea. How world changing would that be, Shaun, if we could get more business owners thinking that way?

43:03 Yeah, absolutely. But it resonates with me better than before is my top value. Yeah, it's, um, and I think that that's, yeah, this, the idea that everyone I engage with, I want to be able to, that they leave better than better than when they came. And I mean, I worked for a company for 10 years and the only reason it wasn't longer was because the company didn't exist after the 10 after the 10 years it got taken over. But, and that was a company that did so much training, invested,

43:32 they invested a lot in me and to with certifications I could have easily gone to other places. And I think that's that example of when you feel invested in and sometimes it's tangible. I mean, okay, they're, they're investing in me and that in training that is tangible because it's going to allow me to do my job better. But we were all the IT support we did was internally. So there was really equipping us.

43:57 So there's not an certifying us. So they could save money on not having to use external people to come in and solve the solve the problem. So there was a tangible, but sometimes it's not, sometimes it's an intangible thing, isn't it? Sometimes you're going, well, actually I can make this person's life better and I don't know the result of that. What I do know is that they will likely go home today better than the better than when they came and we can't,

44:24 so we can't always put down the number and say, well, okay, this person's asked for this or they're all there or there's a everybody's there's a lot of people wanting to an extra day off of work. For example, you know, should days holiday you're thinking, well, okay, yeah, there's a cost to an impact to the business of if everyone in the organisation, we can make today off. Well, what is the potential benefit to those, those people?

44:49 And that's a bit more like a one I take home from what you were talking about with these people you've met yet a conversation with them. So when somebody says, I want extra policy, okay, what would you, what would you use that extra day's holiday for? You've ended up with these people saying, well, I'd use it to spend my family or I'd use it to you thinking you've suddenly you've got this collection of things again. Wow. If all of these days happen, how people want them to happen in the way they're talking about or what is,

45:16 what is that going to do that impacts greater, greater than ourselves that we go into an organisation guy feel like I've been heard because the converse can happen concept where if you don't feel heard, don't feel listened to, you don't really feel like you have much of a part to play in the organisation and that comes back to values and purpose in the organisation where if you don't understand where you fit into or how you deliver what you're doing into those values into that purpose or there isn't one,

45:45 then how do you, how, how can you feel like, but when you know your part in that, in that, you know that, okay, what I'm doing is I'm doing this. I'm behaving in a way that means I know, so somebody is working for me then and there I would hope that it's somebody that wants to be helping people to be better than the before if they're doing that because they know that actually that feeds back into it and it feeds back into into our purpose and I know why they're doing it,

46:13 but to walk along and go, well, yeah, I just do my job in nine to five and I don't know why I do it. It, it, it pays the rent. I mean, that's not really, you don't really want to hear any, any of you, anyone do you, and you don't, and your organisation is saying, why'd you do my job? Oh, well, it pays the rent. Uh, we, uh, we work very aggressively in our little construction companies to get reviews from customers, Google reviews. And so we have about 500 Google reviews between our two separate companies we combined and in the reviews,

46:45 they mentioned all of our employees. So at every meeting, we read every review we got over the last month verbatim, we put them up on the screen, they get to see their names up there. And we tell them every month, I've never met these people. They don't know who I am. I haven't talked to them, but you have. And because you did what you did, they had a five star experience.

47:10 And because of that, they're telling other people about it. And because most people's experiences with contractors is so terrible, you're helping communicate an experience that protects people from having one of those terrible experiences. So, you did that. This is a celebration of you. And we do that every single month. And over time, people start to really believe.

47:36 So we'd say that the two best next hires you have are the person who already works for you that you haven't really invested in well, and the one who leaves and wants to come back because he's realised how great the place he was in. So graciously allowing people to leave and celebrating them out the door. Always leads way to celebrating them as they come back through the door. And I don't understand how business people miss us.

48:05 It feels really basic and simple. We teach all the leaders we work with in our round tables and all of that, these ideas, because we think they they're difference makers path to great business. Yeah. And it reminds me, we saw that people leaving had a situation once where somebody was leaving. And so we, you know, we did, we did a collection. We got this, I think it was a bracelet. We presented all these things. And then then she ended up changing her mind about the job and wanted to come back.

48:37 And people were saying to me, team was saying to me, but what are we going to do about the gifts? So you can ask her attorney. I was like, no, we're not going to ask her attorney. I mean, we've given her something as a gesture of our appreciation of what she's done. That doesn't change it, does it? Just because, just because she's changed her mind and we're coming up sort of the end of the, the time, but I'd love to just really ask you, what would you like to leave the audience with?

49:02 So there's a concept we're working on right now, and it's based on a quote by a leader named Bernard of Clairvaux. And the concept is the man who is wise will see his life as more like a reservoir than a canal. The canal simultaneously pours out what it receives. We live in a world where there's so much information. People refer, books to me that they haven't finished reading.

49:28 We're just full of information. We're taking in podcasts and books and other things, and we're just passing it through. The reservoir retains the water until it is filled, then discharges the overflow without any loss to itself. You must learn to await this fullness before pouring out your gifts.

49:54 And one of the big ideas, we're talking to leaders about is you should operate from a place of full. What does full look like for you and how do you operate in a way where your tank is so full that anyone around you is splashed upon by goodness and mercy and grace and wisdom and understanding and hope without any depletion to yourself.

Live like a reservoir, not a canal

50:19 So the offering of your life is not only full and robust, but is never depleted. It never drains you when you're operating out of unique identity that you talked about and you're carrying the fullness of what that is and you're generously giving out of that it's effortless it's not tiring at all in fact it's I don't know it reproduces itself so that you're endlessly giving and endlessly being restored and never experiencing any depletion. That's a big idea.

50:55 That we're talking to a lot of leaders about and there's some questions that if you're going to frame up your reservoir, how do you make sure your reservoir is really strong and clear and the questions is is an understanding of larger story. What's God like in my world? What is Creator look like to me? What's the story I'm living in? Where is my place in the world in terms of making a bigger difference?

51:23 I need to be clear about that. What is my Frontier? What is just beyond the horizon of what I'm doing that I'm reaching for and working towards and the identity question. Who am I if I know who I am if I know who the Creator is if I know how I fit my unique role to play in this larger narrative of the recreation of the earth that people like you and I call the kingdom as God intended it and you understand Frontier that I'm always reaching.

51:56 I'm always looking just beyond the horizon for more and better of what I was uniquely created to offer. You're going to have a life. That's very full and offering in a way that doesn't drain you in any way, but it's just generative beyond your own capacity. Yeah, that's amazing. I think that's just an idea that we're spending a lot of time on.

52:25 I'll be in Colorado next week with 12 leaders sitting around the table for the day and we're going to be talking about reservoirs. We're going to talk about containers in each of our unique answers to those questions and cultivating answers to those questions because I think it's everything if I know who I am. I know whose I am because I understand my relationship. I understand where I'm at in the story and there's a Frontier beyond whatever richness.

52:52 I'm living in that's better and more. I'm going to have an abundant life that splashes on to everyone and changes the lives of everyone. I come into contact. I want to live that kind of life. Yeah, definitely. That sounds amazing. Reminds me of just last week. There was an example shown of someone who's holding a cup. They're like different sort of plastic cups and the first cup had a hole in it and they're pouring water into a water into it.

53:20 Of course everything you can't hold anything. So this reservoir. Example of said we've you know, you need to first of all be able to hold, you know, it's it to be to hold what it is that's coming in. Then the next next one cup had, you know, just had a few holes in it. So but that cup is okay. It's filling up over time. It's draining. So you're never able to get it never get to a full place because you're still leaking. You're still there's still things going on.

53:46 They mean you're not fully holding on to all that you're receiving and then you've got the cup that is the full cup. And of course as you pour it eventually overflows. And I love that concept of that. You're leaving and you're working. You're giving out of the overflow that actually we're not expected to give from a place where we need to receive that. We you know, we need to ensure we are receiving enough to be able to give rather than you know, it's it's the I've got the image of you know, somebody standing in the middle.

54:13 They're taking the receiving for one person and handing it to the next person without actually receiving that in the in the first place. It's been yeah, it's been a fantastic conversation and unusually. We didn't really talk. We don't think it's for the first time. We haven't mentioned the word AI in the conversation, but I think it's been a wonderful conversation to just really explore. What is what is what how can we be better as humans? Right? We talk about better with humans, but how do we and that isn't about this and sometimes we look at that as oh, how do I scale higher?

54:46 How do I grow bigger? How do I climb a ladder? How do I but actually really we were talking about? Redemption. We're talking about how actually how can we be in a place? Where we have considered and we've we've got support and help through working with those things that have happened to us in the past that allowing us or preventing us for receiving all that we're meant to give the preventing us to really fully completely filling that reservoir and to be able to then go.

55:14 Well actually to be able to fill that up so we can then give out to people and lead in a way that says well, okay, I'm going to see somebody there has a need that can be fulfilled. And doing it from a place of well, actually, this is how we care for that person. Rather than it coming for necessarily from a what is the financial benefit because there is a benefit, but it's not a tangible benefit. But we know as we spoken about this plenty of examples and studies, but we see that when we actually people are seen and heard when they really care about the company when they become invested in the company, they will do anything for that company.

55:52 Whereas which is different to somebody that is not. If it's somebody that's not heard and and there may be a sense looking over their shoulder to find out what point does somebody say, Oh, they've completely forgotten about you and you know, and and let you go because what does this person do?

Two camps on AI

56:08 I'd love your name better with humans because the idea that I know two camps of people. One camp of people is terrified of AI and what's going to happen and how it's going to relegate and diminish the value of people. humans. And the other camp I know that have embraced it are the most creative, alive, energised, hopeful, expectant people. And they don't see it as something that diminishes or

56:40 eliminates humans, but betters the lives and opportunities for everyone involved. And that's the kind of camp, that's where I want to land on an issue like AI. I want to be so clear that restoration is the cry of my heart and the purpose of my life, that how do I use these tools to bring about more restoration on behalf of the people that I have the opportunity to do something about? And I feel like that's what you're pointing at. You're pointing to the idea that

57:09 AI is better with humans, that technology is great in and of itself, but unless it's advantaging, helping people be seen and valued, then it's going to lose its utility and it'll fade away. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really spot on as well. I think this has been such a rich conversation to just go a bit more into depth, into not just talking about how we should use technology in a better way, but if the focus becomes less about how we

57:39 use the technology and more about helping people be seen, but heard and cared for, then just automatically we will use any tool that we have in a better way because it's going to be, we're using it in a way to correct, to make it better. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the things that we need to do. And I think that's one of the things that we need to do. And I think that's one of the things that we need to do. And my little phone here under my contact, Shaun Phillips, and the notes it now has better

58:04 than before, Shaun's top value, because I don't ever want to forget that. And at 60, it's hard to retain things, but I can use technology to be able to connect with you more intimately by paying attention and caring about the things that you care about. So that when I contact you next, I can look at my notes and think, what are you doing that's making things better than before in your life right now? Because that's really important to you.

58:33 Technology can be an incredible tool to help us connect and know people better. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, thank you. That's a tip I'm going to take on board actually, because again, no matter what age, I find it challenging to remember the details of people, even names. So, that's a really great tip. Yeah, thank you so much, Brian, for coming on. I think I'm sure I'd definitely love to have you back on again in the new year to see kind of where

59:01 you've got with that message at the reservoir. And maybe we can explore a bit more about how we actually really dig into a bit more into those elements of being able to work with and support people. Because I mean, I'm supposedly anyway, Enneagram too, but I would say I'm in denial because I've tested it twice and I'm like, I just don't believe it. I'm like, no, it doesn't sound like me, but that's what the test comes up with. But it's, and the Enneagram

59:33 twos are the helpers. They're like, oh yeah, I want to, you want to kind of help people. But similar to you, I do have that passion and drive as well. So, I know sometimes I am, I can be overwhelming. It's something that, so we're not perfect and it's not about living out of a space of, though we said a space of continuous giving, it's working out as well. I just love that reservoir picture. I think I'd love to leave for that picture of we are ensuring that we're

1:00:01 receiving what we need and then we were able to give out of the overflow. Or even as you said, that we're walking along and people are just benefiting from us walking in our life because of the fact we're walking, we're working out this with this overflow. Living a life of abundance instead of one of scarcity. Amen. Is the way I would kind of summarise that. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's been a privilege. Thank you.